Both US parties are gaslighting | Kiwiblog (2024)

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Comments (192) Don Beckett Northshoredoc Mike G the giant from Dunedin David Garrett Interested Party surfing jkt Interested Party Graeme Hall Don Beckett G the giant from Dunedin Benedict Yu Benedict Yu gazzmaniac Benedict Yu Bridgenag Benedict Yu freemark Mike freemark surfing freemark Benedict Yu gazzmaniac Benedict Yu gazzmaniac redqueen Andrew Worth gazzmaniac Ghost gazzmaniac Andrew Worth Scott Interested Party NothingLeft surfing WorthwhileAucklandInitiative kowtow Mike G the giant from Dunedin AitchW Jake Dee Tom Hunter All_on_Red Inandout Mike Steve Todd Mike redeye kowtow Manu-Rau AitchW Country Air Ian. Flossie G the giant from Dunedin Vinicius Country Air Ian. Simon J Taylor Northshoredoc David Garrett Ghost David Garrett Mike G the giant from Dunedin Country Air Ian. Steve Todd Benedict Yu Bush Apologist Don Beckett Bush Apologist Steve Todd Bush Apologist Don Beckett Graeme Hall G the giant from Dunedin Colville G the giant from Dunedin Country Air Ian. Chuck Bird David Garrett hmmokrightitis David Garrett WorthwhileAucklandInitiative Bush Apologist Steve Todd Don Beckett David Garrett WorthwhileAucklandInitiative Steve Otto(North Shore) imalwaysright Steve Otto(North Shore) Ghost Cassandra Bush Apologist G the giant from Dunedin Benedict Yu kowtow Mike Chuck Bird Bush Apologist G the giant from Dunedin NothingLeft ScrubOne Steve Otto(North Shore) Mike Matt Long Mike G the giant from Dunedin Mike EssenX G the giant from Dunedin ScrubOne G the giant from Dunedin Tom Hunter Mike Tom Hunter ISeeRed Jake Dee All_on_Red WorthwhileAucklandInitiative Steve Otto(North Shore) WorthwhileAucklandInitiative ChristopherW2 Benedict Yu David Garrett All_on_Red Steve Otto(North Shore) Scott Mike Don Beckett DistantObserver Steve Otto(North Shore) WorthwhileAucklandInitiative RichardX ChristopherW2 Tom Hunter Mike All_on_Red ChristopherW2 NothingLeft DistantObserver RichardX NothingLeft RichardX RichardX Chuck Bird Inandout G the giant from Dunedin Conservatarian freemark WorthwhileAucklandInitiative All_on_Red Tom Hunter Benedict Yu David Garrett Tom Hunter NothingLeft Mike Benedict Yu graham71 G the giant from Dunedin NothingLeft Conservatarian Steve Todd dcrane G the giant from Dunedin Steve Otto(North Shore) Tauhei Notts Dave Winefield andrewo Ghost NothingLeft Ghost NothingLeft Ghost Tom Hunter Mike Conservatarian Inandout mandk NothingLeft andrewo DistantObserver Steve Otto(North Shore) WaynelSexton Inandout kevn NothingLeft Vinicius freemark Spoff Add a Comment

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  • Don Beckett

    ” The alleged voter fraud was mythical or insignificant.”
    No it wasn’t – it was real & extensive. There have been a few minor court cases which have adjudicated it to have been so – the tip of the iceberg.

    • Northshoredoc

      eye roll…

    • Mike

      Bullsh*t. Your belief in myths does not make them true.

      • G the giant from Dunedin

        And your belief the Dens and rotten Biden are mythical

    • David Garrett

      I am starting to see those who say “the election was stolen from Trump” rather like those who claim the moon landings were faked. (They are often so ill informed they think there was only one landing, not six.)

      When confronted with such nuts I simply have to walk away. Engaging with them is bad for my blood pressure.

      Just out of interest Don, do you believe 12 Americans walked on the moon between 1969 and 1972? A simple Yes or No will do.

      • Interested Party

        I would agree that much of the talk is hyperbolic, but to say there were no dodgy practices is wilful ignorance. Proving it though is very hard. You have 50 states with differing ways of running the voting process. Think of the TPM voting issue in south Auckland, now think honestly, add steroids and you have many similar issues in a country of 330 million.

        • surfing

          “to say there were no dodgy practices is wilful ignorance.”

          You need to be called out on this.

          So who said that? Quote one person. Certainly none of the above commenters made such an assertion.

          In a country the size of America, there will be fraudulent votes. But, I’d also say it is probably about even on both sides.

          Any significant attempt at fraud will be picked up because people can’t close their mouths.

          • jkt

            Some grab onto a kernel and claim the entire bushel belongs to them.

          • Interested Party

            This is not a courthouse, one wouldn’t need to lawyer up with exact language on a blog site. It is implied when one has a view that there’s been 60 investigations and no convictions.

            People have spoken up

      • Graeme Hall

        I guess David, as a simple fellow, I have to believe evidence shown on a major US cable broadcaster of dubious electoral activities.
        1. Videos of boxes of “votes” being wheeled into counting offices in the middle of the night in key locations. Maybe those videos are false like videos of Biden freezing & gibbering were?
        2. Videos of independent verifiers being forced to leave said offices with blinds pulled down while counting continued.
        3. Several convictions of electoral fraudsters (despite Farrar’s claims),
        4. The $400+ million Zuckerberg put in to pay for manning the voting & counting stations with sympathetic staff in key counties? He didn’t do that out of the goodness of his heart.

        As Stalin is alleged to have said “It is not the votes that count. It is those that count the votes.”

      • Don Beckett

        Yes. Totally different time , place & circ*mstance.

      • G the giant from Dunedin

        People look stupid at me when I say man landed and walked on the moon 6 times, it’s the same old thing, people only remember the first

        • Benedict Yu

          Who are these people?

      • Benedict Yu

        Once conspiracy theories take hold, it can take many decades for them to fade. You need to wait for the believers to pass away, and perhaps their descendants.

        We are going to be stuck with USA election conspiracies, and COVID vaccine conspiracies for a very long time. Of course politicians bring this on. They ask folk to believe that “gender” is a spectrum. That is even less plausible than the covid vaccines killing millions.

        Nobody now believes that witches are the agents of the devil and should be burned at the stake. However it took two centuries to deal with that belief.

        • gazzmaniac

          The problem with labelling things you don’t like as conspiracy theories begins when the start proving to be true.
          Take covid – most of the conspiracies aren’t theories – they actually happened and more and more evidence is coming to light to support that. Us “conspiracy theorists” were saying the lockdowns and face masks were BS way back in the first quarter of 2020, yet it’s only now that Fauci has publicly admitted there was no basis for them in science. Same with the so-called vaccines – the Astra Zeneca vaccine being withdrawn from market earlier in the year is a case in point.

          Same with the CIA’s involvement with the assassination of JFK and RFK.

          Same with Jeff Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell – the only question is how extensive their network is.

          And so on.

      • Benedict Yu

        The problem is that you literally cannot debate these folk. Total waste of time. May as well take on a Jehovah’s Witness or an anti vaxxer. Best you can hope for is that their children reject mysticism and irrationality.

        The irrationality of such people is a reason I am angered by the government promoting gender and Maori mysticism as science and social norms. If the government tells its people that a man can become a woman, they can hardly be surprised that some folk think that the measles vaccine might kill their children.

        • Bridgenag

          After ALL the evidence posted her about the vaxs…… The fact you call them conspiracy theorists speaks volumes. In the league of Mike

          • Benedict Yu

            Oh so you are actually someone who thinks that the MMR vaccine kills children?

            I have posted actual, peer reviewed data on the efficacy of the COVID vaccine. Dozens of times. You are welcome to refute it. I don’t mean refude it Jacinda style either.

          • freemark

            Does anyone know why some comments have no “reply” function?

            [Mod – it’s just the way the blog works. What you do is just go above the comment you want to reply to until the reply button is there]

          • Mike

            freemark
            Kiwiblog has ‘nested’ comments to make it easier to follow a back and forth. Previously, all Kiwiblog comments showe in order of posting time.
            There is a limit to the nesting so that threads don’t keep expanding to the right.

        • freemark

          You have a comment that I can’t reply to regarding peer review. The fact that you still regard this method of groupthink as some kind of scientific truth speaks volumes. What are your thoughts on the “97% of climate scientists..” hoax? Do you really believe that the mild virus named Covid 19 demanded a global mass jab response with experimental gene therapy that is now proven to be at best unnecessary & ineffective for 90% of those sucked or forced into taking it? Do you understand that you are generally blocked from seeing the 1000’s of studies by leading scientists stating just that? Have you read Kennedy’s book on Fauci? Do you know anything about the PCR test scam? Do you watch a lot of TV? Are you aware of the millions globally injured by vaccines? Can you explain the explosion in autism cases, the tsunami of ill-health & immune deficiency, tbe plummeting of testosterone in males & oestrogen in females?

          • surfing

            “Covid 19 demanded a global mass jab response with experimental gene therapy”

            Gene therapy is used to treat conditions caused by a person’s genes.

            You probably need to understand the terms you are using before you use them.

          • freemark

            @ surfing. It has been undeniably proven, and admitted now by the pushers, that mRNA is gene therapy. It’s still experimental, & most experiments have been an abject, disastrous failure – whether or not you support the concept this is fact. If you are unable to comprehend the scale of corruption & medical misadventure behind the whole thing by now there is little hope that you have any critical analysis ability.

        • gazzmaniac

          How is it irrational to say you don’t want to inject into your body a brand new medicine that has no track record and provisional approval? In order to possibly protect you from a virus that will probably be no worse than a cold? Especially when historically there is a dangerous track record for new vaccines (e.g. the Cutter Incident – which formed 90% of my objection to the one for Covid – all I wanted was 2-3 years to see if it taking it is worth my risk).

          I have no issue with others wanting to take it but I have a massive problem with the state requiring me to or else I can’t go about my otherwise legal business.

          Yet somehow it is me who is irrational for being cautious.

          • Benedict Yu

            “no worse than a cold”.. It killed 7 million people.

            In not getting vaccinated, you are not cautious. You are reckless.

          • gazzmaniac

            You are taking a big number and making it sound scary because you are using it out of context.

            Between nine and forty million people die from influenza EVERY year. Seven million people died with Covid over three years. Even if every single Covid related death was actually caused by Covid, Covid would be about one quarter as deadly as the flu in a good season, but even then we know that’s an unrealistic scenario.

            Those 7 million people died WITH not OF Covid. Most of them had severe comorbidities and all Covid did was finish them off, just like the common cold and pneumonia does, and those who didn’t died of something totally unrelated like a car crash, cancer, overdose, suicide, etc., but were counted in the statistics because they had covid in their system at the time of death, because that’s what was being counted.

            So sure, call me reckless, but I don’t get vaccinated against flu either and that’s a much higher risk.

          • redqueen

            Probably not reckless (in that most people I’ve met who are anti-vaxine have genuine beliefs about the efficacy or safety of the vaccine), but probably closer to gross negligence (in that we now have more evidence and the matter has become almost purely partisan).

          • Andrew Worth

            gazzmaniac
            Annual global flu deaths are around 700,000/year, not 7 million.

            In the US annual flu deaths range from around 5,000 to 50,000.

            US covid deaths were around 500,000 a year over the 3 years 2020-22.

            There are arguments for and against the measures taken by various countries, from Sweden’s acceptance of the spread through the population to New Zealand’s relative success in restricting the spread until the vaccine was available.

            Sweden’s covid death rate was about 5 times New Zealand’s.

          • gazzmaniac

            Andrew – My numbers for flu deaths come from the CDC which is the first result when you Google “how many people die of flu each year”

          • gazzmaniac

            redqueen – it’s not negligent to be cautious about what drugs you put in your body. There are very good reasons to wait and see with a new substance.

            The Cutter Incident in 1955 was the primary reason why I wanted to wait. It was a similarly rushed vaccine that wasn’t tested properly and safety shortcuts were taken, and sold to a population in fear (with the Cutter incident it was a fear of Polio, which is much more dangerous than Covid). Sadly it’s not the only new vaccine that has caused tremendous harm on its first rollout; here’s a link to the CDC describing a few from the last 70 years.
            https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/concerns-history.html

            Given the poor track record of new vaccines anyone is right to be concerned that there might be safety issues that have not been discovered or disclosed, especially when the it has only preliminary approval because proper safety studies have not been completed. That doesn’t make someone negligent, that makes them cautious. There is nothing wrong with being cautious and nothing wrong with assessing risk yourself.

            In the climate of hysteria we saw in 2020 and 2021 it takes a much stronger person to make a stand and say no.

          • Andrew Worth

            From Our World in Data:
            https://ourworldindata.org/influenza-deaths
            “The annual respiratory mortality caused by seasonal influenza was estimated by the Global Pandemic Mortality Project II using data between 2002 and 2011. They estimated that, during this period, seasonal influenza caused between 294,000 and 518,000 respiratory deaths each year globally, with an average of 389,000.

            A similar study was conducted by Chaves and colleagues (2023), who estimated flu deaths from cardiovascular disease between 2011 and 2019. They estimated that seasonal flu caused 200,000 to 400,000 cardiovascular deaths globally each year, with an average of 300,000.”

    • Scott

      I’m satisfied that if the Democrats didn’t steal the 2020 election they certainly tried to.

      The court cases have not been played out, they’ve been dismissed on technical grounds. Problems with the election include:
      – millions of mail in ballots where signatures were not adequately verified.
      – Ballot harvesting including 2000 mules
      – Voting systems that had connectivity to the internet.
      – 6 swing states that mysteriously all stopped counting when Trump was ahead. In the morning Biden was ahead. How did that happen when counting had stopped?
      – Voting booths and the counting of votes in the hands of democrat operatives paid for by Mark Zuckerberg.

      I can go on and on. Given the existential threat Dems believed Trump posed do you think they would hesitate to steal the election? Of course they wouldn’t. The question is, did they? I think the evidence shows they did.

      But look if you sincerely believe Biden got 81m votes and was therefore the most popular president ever, well I can’t help you.

      • Interested Party

        Unfortunately Scott those with TDS won’t be able to comprehend your excellent points

      • NothingLeft

        Witness the utter joke that has been the Democrat controlled judiciary in Fulton county Georgia over the last 6 months (Corrupt Fani Willis, another Judge that got caught being corrupt and so tried to put lawyer who caught him out in jail, yet another senior judge that has been removed from the bench for criminality) and remember that these are the partisan muppets who were in charge of adjudicating challenges to the corrupt electoral processes within that jurisdiction.

        Note that the 2020 election fraud cases in Fulton county Georgia and some other jurisdiction are still ongoing, being procedurally impeded now for many years by members of the party and highly Dem-partisan civil servants that benefited most from fraudulent election processes. That is the fundamental problem; there are so many potential attack vectors for corrupt individuals to halt or prevent honest investigation of fraud – meaning the process can always be shut down or slowed to the point of irrelevancy one way or another.

        Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

      • surfing

        Amazing how easy it is for the left to simply takeover the entire US electoral system .

        Good for Biden though. If you are right and you seem convinced, then the democrats can win every single future election.

        You realise how silly you will look if Trump wins the next election though?

        • WorthwhileAucklandInitiative

          Well, yes… those are precisely my concerns. That the game is so rigged that Trump will have to be ten points up to win. I can’t wait to look that silly.

    • kowtow

      Time Magazine , how many times must I post this , did an indepth story on ‘how the election was saved”.

      Hundreds of millions of tech billionaire dollars pumped into a weird alliance , a conspiracy even , of the far left and business interests to hire an army of activists who went to the housing estates etc , places where they knew the apathetic vote resided and no doubt ( as we are seeing happens here) “helped” them to fill out their ballots , then harvested and delivered .
      Covid postal voting rules helped this too.

      That’s how they “won”.

      • Mike

        A get out the vote campaign that was more effective than their opponents is not fraud.

        • G the giant from Dunedin

          More effective? Are you dreaming? Do you have Joes dementia? Let’s not forget for one minute that Biden was in the basem*nt for months, there was no bloody campaign

          • AitchW

            American politics are so tribal, so binary that there is no need to campaign for voted, simply to mobilise voters.
            With apologies to Kipling, Dems is Dems, and Republicans is Republicans and never the Twain shall meet.
            Sadly we are going the same way with little or no civilised debate or discussion. Just my team is best and anyone who disagrees is a stinky poo head.

        • Jake Dee

          “A get out the vote campaign that was more effective than their opponents is not fraud” but it’s not democracy either.
          There has to be a careful examination of what the system was designed to do, what its fundamental principles are and then what the real-world results actually were. Just to reply that it was legal and therefore OK is grossly insufficient.
          The massive injection of money into the electoral system by Zuckerberg and others clearly happened, but why, for what purpose?
          What does that say about the American social and political system, not the system that is CLAIMED to exist, but the system that actually DOES exist?
          And if there was an independent outside observer of that system (perhaps a man from New Zealand but more likely a man from the planet Mars as NZ is NOT independent from the USA) and that observer has perfect access to all the votes all the financial records and all the private conversations plus all the English language dictionaries, what word would they use that best describes the American political system, as it was in 2020 and is now currently in 2024?
          Is the best description “Democracy” or is a better description “Oligarchy”?
          That’s why I think the 2020 election was a fraud, but it’s hardly the only one. I don’t think the US presidential elections have been democratic for a long time, certainly for many years but more likely for generations.

      • Tom Hunter

        I wish people would stop using the word “stolen” for the 2020 US election.

        “Fortified” is the word to use. The 2020 election was “fortified” to insure Trump would not win. The word is not only approved of by TIME magazine but all the people who contributed to Molly Ball’s story and excitedly told her how they did it.

      • Inandout

        kow, yes that magazine is spot on as to how it was carried out. Dems though wished for Biden, voted for him, and now have a bad case of buyers’ remorse.
        Now the English voting system is one of the safest because of photo ID.
        Since May 2023, voters have had to show a valid form of photo ID at polling stations to vote in person at most elections.

        ‘The rules apply to:

        UK general elections
        all local elections in England, including those for mayors and the London Assembly
        all local referendums and parliamentary by-elections in England
        police and crime commissioner elections in England and Wales.’

        • Mike

          Please summarize for me the evidence of in-person voter fraud in the UK before this change.

        • Steve Todd

          @Inandout @ 11:59AM

          The UK’s voter ID scheme is a mess.

          From an e-mail I received from the Electoral Reform Society (ERS) last Saturday, 29 June—

          “Millions of people will have to bring ID to the polling station for the first time on July 4th. From the start, the ERS has argued that demanding ID was an unnecessary and damaging measure – It has always been a solution in search of a problem.

          “That’s because levels of impersonation have always been extremely low. There were only 10 convictions between 2019 and 2023 out of the tens of millions of votes cast. One voter turned away is one too many, yet the scheme saw 14,000 voters turned away in the 2023 local elections.

          “14,000 people turned away in one election vs 10 convictions over 5 years.

          “Once of the reason so many people were turned away is that the government’s voter ID scheme is a mess. They promised it would be just like picking up a parcel, then decided not to accept ID cards you can use to pick up a parcel.

          “Nobody should be turned away because their driving licence is still in their maiden name, or a poll worker thinks they don’t look like an old passport photo.

          “With no right to appeal, the UK now has a more restrictive ID regime than many US states. […].”

          • Mike

            Just as in the US, voter ID is not a vote-security measure, it is a vote-suppression measure.

    • redeye

      To be fair Trump wasn’t the first beaten Presidential candidate to claim his election was stolen. Hillary wrote a book about her percieved injustice, and then spent the entire Trump first term telling anyone who would listen that he was an illegitimate President.

      • kowtow

        Bush V Gore .Supreme Court 2000.

        • Manu-Rau

          Indeed. And then Gore spent the next 25 years proving himself a corrupt liar and conspiracy theorist – as evidenced by everything he has ever said on the subject of climate change.

      • AitchW

        Remember the “not my president” marches descending into looting and burning?

    • Country Air Ian.

      Don, it always amuses me when the subject is raised.
      If anyone could believe there was no voter fraud in the USof A in 2020, must sleep with their teddy bear every night.

      I looked at wikipedia and was stuck by this.

      The Trump campaign suffered several setbacks on November 13, 2020. The Department of Homeland Security released a statement saying that the election was the “most secure in American history” and that there was no evidence any voting systems malfunctioned.[35] Sixteen federal prosecutors assigned to monitor the election sent a letter to Attorney General William Barr saying there was no evidence of widespread irregularities.

      The Department of Homeland Security?

      16 Federal prosecutors.??
      Out of 94, not exactly a stunning endorsem*nt
      https://www.justice.gov/usao/us-attorneys-listing

      Now consider the 51 Intellegence officials who decalred that Hunter Bidens Laptop was a Russian Plant.

      https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/ex-intel-officials-who-smeared-post-s-report-on-hunter-s-laptop-as-russian-disinfo-stand-by-signing-letter-patriotic/ar-BB1nY3vY

      You still beleiev there was no election fraud in 2020? Enjoy your teddy bear tonight.

  • Flossie

    If Biden is incapable of basic tasks now he will definitely not last the distance of another term.
    Doubtful he’s going to win anyway if he does continue to stand.

    • G the giant from Dunedin

      I watched us tv this morning, looks like he even had problems reading from the teleprompter over night

  • Vinicius

    All the gaslighting sounds even worse coming from the USA, the self-appointed ‘world’s greatest democracy’.

      • Simon J Taylor

        America’s main description of itself has been indisputably as a democracy. This had a poignant effect in World War II and the Cold War. It was “making the world safe for DEMOCRACY”, not “making the word safe for republics/constitutions, etc”. I’m not sure when this false dichotomy of democracy vs republic crept in.

  • Northshoredoc

    A pox on both parties

  • David Garrett

    Americans also deserve two much better candidates than these two: One a rampant narcissist, misogynist and compulsive liar, the other a man who is clearly cognitively impaired to a greater or lesser degree.

    Frankly the hands of either one on the nuclear football should scare the sh*t out of all of us,

    • Ghost

      Right now it’s who the republican vice president will be that is important. Trump won’t last a full term

      Biden is gone, he won’t be president much longer.

      • David Garrett

        Ghost: I would interested to know why you think Trump wouldn’t last a full term. To me, he seems exceptionally vigorous and “with it” for a man two years short of 80.

        • Mike

          Trump’s a mess. I wouldn’t trust either man to look after my cat for a weekend.

          • G the giant from Dunedin

            Oh and Biden is so bloody commanding ffs

          • Country Air Ian.

            Haha Mike. Probably says more about you and your Cat than the current candidates.

        • Steve Todd

          David: he doesn’t know; how can he know?

          It’s nothing more than his opinion, almost certainly primarily based on what he sees and reads (probably online) of other people’s opinions and speculation, which he has decided he agrees with.

        • Benedict Yu

          I agree. With the cautionary note that after 80 folk can go downhill rather quickly.

          In contrast the idea that Biden could last through to January 2029 is farcical.

    • Bush Apologist

      Calling someone a nasrcist and compulsive liar is rather ironic coming from an identity thief, who was subsequently suspended from the bar after admitting he “omitted to tell the truth”. We can all be critical of others prior indiscretions.

      The thing I find interesting about the way people demonize Trump, is when I ask people to tell me what they think was the worst lie he said during his presidency, or indeed what was the worst thing he did during his presidency? David, perhaps you could answer those two, perhaps even point out his most misogynistic moment during his presidency.

      • Don Beckett

        Your first paragraph is totally unnecessary & despicable.

        • Bush Apologist

          [Mod – take your personal abuse elsewhere]

        • Steve Todd

          Good one, Don. Totally agree.

          I wonder, would Bush Apologist have thought it “ironic” if David had been, say, an embezzler rather than an “identity thief”? In other words, can only those of us “who are without sin” — which does not include me — have an adverse opinion of someone else? Of course not.

          David made a mistake when he was a much younger man. He has told us many times over the last ten or so years, how much he regrets what he did, especially with regard to the effect he was (much) later told it had on the infant’s mother.

          Bush Apologist is a typical right-wing, judgemental Christian — so-called. In my view, he’s a disgrace.

          (I post this comment knowing that Bush Apologist’s response to you has been deleted. My opinion of him would appear to be “fortified”, as Tom Hunter might say.)

          • Bush Apologist

            Steve, you’re reinforcing my point, I was merely pointing out the irony of David’s judgementalism. I also make specific reference to David’s judgementalism in his reference to the “p***y” comment, Trump’s apology, and acknowledged that David has also apologized for his misdeeds. I probably should have put more of the above context around the first paragraph that Don is offended by. Sorry – that was slack of me.

            You can call me disgraceful for referencing David’s past. He’s done the same with respect to Trump’s past. I was trying to make the point that no one actually talks about what Trump did in his term as President but instead fall back to ad hominem attacks based primarily on his past.

            The Mod deleted a comment which I believe in no way rises anywhere near the level of personal abuse, and seen fit to delete a further response post of mine to that. Make of that what you will, I can’t do anything about that.

          • Don Beckett

            Cheers, BA.
            Most of your further comments I agree with.

      • Graeme Hall

        It seems to me that most of Trump’s more flamboyant critics ought to examine their own past first. As Trump said in the last debate he doesn’t need the job & if there was a good man in charge he would be happy to keep playing golf. Don’t forget Trump defeated 16 professional politicians in the 2016 primaries & became President of the US as his first foray into politics. Past residents of the beltway addicted to politics, including our gracious host, seem unable to forgive him for this amazing feat.

    • G the giant from Dunedin

      Firstly Biden lies on virtually every issue he talks of, I would have thought you would have picked that up(not meaning you have form)

      Only. Iden has muttered giving Putin his nuclear war, while Trump was in office not one war or attack by the US apart from retaliation from terrorist attacks happened

  • Colville

    Americans may deserve better but they are not going to get it.

    The choice is between two candidates that have significant issues but its clear that you can only trust one of them to stay awake or grasp what is happening today.

    I listened to Peter Zeihan telling his audience that Trump is worse than Biden as he wont accept anything that dosent fit his world view. My take is Biden dosent have a world view as he cant remember what day it is.

    I enjoy Zeihan’s views on most things but listening to his TDS is sickening. He is now making excuses and back tracking as his reasons why Trump would lose are clearly rubbish.

    Middle America, the all important Center is clearly going to vote for safety and vote Trump.

    • G the giant from Dunedin

      Well they had a chance on the Rep side to choose someone else, Dems on the other hand want a dictatorial nutter. Let’s not forget that Biden scuttled their oil independence, and the world has suffered with fuel prices since

    • Country Air Ian.

      Its such a shame that people have bought in to personalities and not policies.
      In my view a very shallow intellect when it comes to serious thinking.

      Trump is a showman. He will use all the tricks of showmanship to get where he want to go. Thats why he has been successful.
      ohh dear, now we will get how he got succesful on the back of Daddys money or shaddy deals.

      These moaning minnies seem to forget all his Construction successes in New York City having to battle local politicians and Unions.
      Very Successful TV show, The Apprentice which ran for 11 years. Then defeated 16? politicians and Hilary Clinton to win the WHite House.

      If anyone here expects politicians not to lie, then I have a bridge to sell you. Its part of their game.

      I refer you to the great liar who lied on TV.

      When asked during one of the leaders’ debates in 2017, “Is it possible to survive in politics without lying?”, she not only said it was but claimed she’d “never told a lie in politics”.

  • Chuck Bird

    Who are we to criticise the Americans when we elected a communist?

    • David Garrett

      Fair point Chuck…but at least Ardern could string a coherent sentence together, and she didn’t advocate grabbing men by the balls to get their attention.

      • hmmokrightitis

        “Ardern could string a coherent sentence together” ah, we will have to disagree on that one DG.

        Her word soup was legendary, and didn’t even extend to an understanding of the difference between “refute” and “repudiate” and “disagree with”.

        She was and remains the biggest gaslighter and liar of them all.

        Safe and effective

        Single source of truth

        No one will be forced etc etc

        • David Garrett

          hmmo: I didn’t say she spoke the truth! But I doubt Biden could say: “You need to get two doses of the vaccine before it is fully effective” unless it was on a teleprompter in front of him. And he had no teleprompter last week.

      • WorthwhileAucklandInitiative

        Every time I see Garrett criticize Trump, I’m reminded of the fact that, no matter what Trump has done in his life, he never stole a dead baby’s identity. And that makes Trump a much more honorable politician than Garrett was, or ever will be.

        • Bush Apologist

          I believe Garrett did apologize for his failings, as did Trump regarding his “p***y” smak comment. Ironically the identity theft and smak comment occurred in the same year I believe.

          For the record.
          “I’ve said and done things I regret, and the words that were released today in this more than decade-old video are one of them,” Trump said in a late-night video statement.
          “Anyone who knows me, knows these words don’t reflect who I am,” he said. “I said it, I was wrong and I apologize.”

          David will be able quote his apology I’m sure.

          • Steve Todd

            Ironically the identity theft and smak comment occurred in the same year I believe.

            That is incorrect. As I recall, David Garrett’s well-known transgression occurred in the 1980s. Trump made his disgusting “puss*-grab” comment (the tape of which was not revealed until 2016) in September 2005.

        • Don Beckett

          Same response to this as to Bush Apologist. Totally unnecessary & despicable.

        • David Garrett

          Worthwhile (Not): Aren’t you just an anonymous brave keyboard warrior?

          • WorthwhileAucklandInitiative

            [Mod – no. Debate the topics, not the person ]

            As for my personal desire not to be doxxed for my opinions, I try not to criticize the morality of any politicians, so it doesn’t apply to me.

        • Steve Otto(North Shore)

          No need

          • imalwaysright

            Agree.
            Argue the point, not the man.

            I’m sure there are plenty on this site who have managed to keep the skeletons in their closets well hidden.

          • Steve Otto(North Shore)

            imalwaysright,

            Skeletons: I have a Thai girlfriend, and all the eyes start rolling and they go ‘oh yeah!’
            It’s true. The girl/woman from Sukhumvit Bangkok is a girl and a friend that we have known for 20? years. I met her on the internet (long story about Thai food.) Now married to an Alaskan man and they have a son 8 Years. Sort of like a grandson to me.
            When we go to Alaska they give us the key to their house, so not a skeleton anymore. Skeleton in the sense that I used to have people on about having a Thai girlfriend.

        • Cassandra

          Worth: nonsense. DG’s was a minor indiscretion compared to Trump’s list.

          • Bush Apologist

            Care to elaborate Trump’s list?

      • G the giant from Dunedin

        She had us all by the balls for some time

      • Benedict Yu

        “… Ardern could string a coherent sentence together…”

        I disagree.

    • kowtow

      More allegations about South Auckland marae dodgy doings in local election matters ……..buried in page 12 Herald today.

      To add insult to injury it was done under the vaccination cover.

      How then if we’re so open to believing this can happen in “corruption free” lil ole NZ , it can’t happen in the massive , diverse and traditionally Tammany Hall type tradition of political corruption on the left in the US ?

    • Mike

      Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

      • Bush Apologist

        Perhaps. However Ardern is a self declared socialist, and Marxist. Based on that alone, in this specific case it is reasonable to call her a communist.

        But to be sure, being a Marxist and espousing his ideology is the far worse identifier. The man was evil personified.

      • G the giant from Dunedin

        She greets her colleagues with hi comrades, openly. Get that idea she is not a communist out of your head

      • ScrubOne

        We’ve absolutely got communists here. Yea, they’re the “sit around and talk” type, but so was Lenin until they actually launched the revolution.

      • Steve Otto(North Shore)

        She was a communist in that International Youth Socialist President speech in Hungary in 2009 Comrade.
        I see it is mentioned above.

        • Mike

          Young Labour membership of IUSY makes the NZ Labour Party ‘communists’?

      • Matt Long

        How are the fascists in the Maori and green parties different from other fascists; because the lack the power to more than rail against Jews?

        • Mike

          How do you figure out they are fascists?

    • G the giant from Dunedin

      Who is we?

      • Mike

        He thinks he is speaking for all New Zealanders.

  • EssenX

    The media has a big role to play in this. Even after Biden’s “black woman” moment some of them are still saying he’s OK. WTF.

    • G the giant from Dunedin

      And last election when he spoke to a black guy on tv he said he was voting for Trump, Biden yelled at him and said if you are voting for trump you ain’t black. That right their is the filthy left for you

      • ScrubOne

        Yes.

        Weirdly, when I ask people for actual examples of Trump’s supposed racism, I have yet to have been given an actual example of real racism from his mouth.

        • G the giant from Dunedin

          I have never seen or heard him suggest racism, in fact when meeting a group of black people he seems to get very less aggressive and if anything he is like a puppy

  • Tom Hunter

    So the US has both major parties who treat the voters with a degree of contempt,

    I know how they feel.

    Judging by recent election results in Britain, France, Germany and elsewhere, there’s a lot of that feeling going around the West.

    • Mike

      The people’s enthusiasm is easier to generate in the one-party states.

  • Tom Hunter

    Now we have the Democrats doing their own gaslighting, by claiming Biden is capable of being President….

    Now? NOW? How about since 2019 when it was obvious that the man putting his hand up to run was already dangerously different to the guy who boasted in early 2018 about getting the Ukrainian prosecutor fired.

    That guy was the same Joe Biden I’d seen since first becoming aware of him in 1988. The one in 2019, not so much.

    And how about getting angry at all the enablers in the wider circle, including the MSM that you so often link to and quote from? Former NYT reporter Alex Berenson certainly is:

    The reporters who cover the President , who are the eyes and ears of the worldon a man who controls a nuclear arsenal capable of erasing humanity, saw his cognitive decline face to face.

    They didn’t write about what they had seen. They didn’t investigate it.

    They joked about it. With each other. Privately.

    Nuzzi and the others were part of “the conspiracy of silence”, as much as any Democrat donor.

    And in June when even the most tightly controlled public events could not hide Biden’s infirmities, they wrote of “cheap Fakes” (meaning accurate and real videos) and “misinformation”. Only now that the world knows have they turned on Biden – viciously as I wrote Wednesday.

    Charles Cook is even more blunt about the Nuzzi article:

    This piece describes a political conspiracy. The people who orchestrated it extend well beyond Joe Biden. They include his most likely replacement—Kamala Harris. It cannot be fixed just by swapping her in and moving on. There must be a political price to pay for all involved. (1)

    [Narrators Voice: there won’t be, aside from losing an election]

    Even the f*cking Economist was in on it, as these two contrasting cover stories show from January 2021 and now. (having said that I’ve been aware for some time now of how far they have slipped).

    • ISeeRed

      They were just fortifying democracy. You wouldn’t understand.

    • Jake Dee

      This whole situation is a big win for the alt-media and a big loss for the mainstream legacy media. It’s not just the current cognitive state of Joe Biden either. Having your boss stricken with senile dementia is one thing but having an entire political system that can operate while the chief executive officer is suffering from dementia, probably for years is quite another, there is no way to put a positive spin on that.

  • All_on_Red

    This article is extensive as it examines the results of the Court cases.
    Its certainly true that Trump mainly failed
    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/trumps-judicial-campaign-to-upend-the-2020-election-a-failure-but-not-a-wipe-out/
    I think its inaccurate and simplistic to use the descriptor ‘stolen’ to describe what happened.
    Mainly what happened was legal. Covid enabled many States to change the legislated provisions around voting using Absentee Ballots.
    These provisions lowered the bar on proving identity and matching that to enrolment records.
    This made it a lot easier for the system to be gamed and for fraud to go undetected.
    Add to that unsupervised Ballot drop off places.
    Funds being donated for ‘people’ to go and collect votes aka Ballot Harvesting. (Zuck Bucks)
    Media actively suppressing information harmful to Biden (Hunters Laptop/Clinton funding the Steele Dossier etc) and promoting things which weren’t true which hurt Trump (Russia Russia Russia etc) and other things and some could say there was a lot of Electoral malfeasance.
    Stolen? No
    Corrupt- probably yes.
    In the end Trump only lost by about 40,000 Votes. Not a lot.
    Georgia was only 10,000 and that State had very loose Absentee Voting provisions.
    Georgia has now tightened things up because of this- you can see by what they have changed how the system could have been exploited during 2020
    https://www.reuters.com/world/us/big-changes-under-georgias-new-election-law-2021-06-14/

    @DG- you might find this explains why many are aggrieved by the result.

    • WorthwhileAucklandInitiative

      There’s legal stealing and illegal stealing. I don’t parse hairs with that – Maori in this country have had their land stolen off of them by British settlers, and does it really matter whether the law said they could do it? Likewise with the 2020 election, it was stolen, and whether Pennsylvania and other states allowed that to happen under their laws doesn’t change the definition of theft.

      • Steve Otto(North Shore)

        Maori sold 92% of their land to the Crown who then on sold the land.
        Some land was confiscated because some Tribes did not follow the new rules of ALL New Zealanders were British Subjects.

        http://www.stopcogovernance.kiwi
        Read the truth. If you don’t go to the website you have no idea what you are talking about.

        • WorthwhileAucklandInitiative

          You are trying to argue that the theft was entirely legal, which rather proves my point.

  • ChristopherW2

    In the US 2020 election, there were serious irregularities and breaches of the law on a massive scale. It means nothing that the courts declined to adjudicate.

    Here in NZ, we are rightly concerned that on a single little marae there may have been a wee little bit of Census information acquired illegally.

    In the US, palette loads of votes, with no paper trail, were delivered to swing electorates and ‘counted’ in the dead of night with no scrutineers, so that the result of the election in that state was reversed, to name just the most blatant case among dozens of major breaches of electoral integrity; in simple terms, there was blatant cheating, that the world could see with its own eyes, on a scale that very likely affected the election outcome. It doesn’t matter that the authorities will not investigate, if indeed there really exist authorities who might investigate; it doesn’t settle things that the courts didn’t intervene, it just reveals the whole system to be dirtier.

    Mr Trump’s supporters are entirely right to continue to air their severe and justified grievances; and more importantly, to demand that these scandalous practices should cease.

    We wouldn’t accept it in NZ; we wouldn’t accept practices anywhere remotely close to this – there would be a universal outcry; even in the developing world, most countries wouldn’t accept breaches of electoral law on such a scale – why should the yanks be expected to shut up and defer to the pundit class??

    • Benedict Yu

      Can you cite actual, credible evidence for those claims?

      All the allegations I have read have an eerily familiar tone. It is the same tone that I detect when I read earnest accounts of humans not landing on the moon. Or that the USA government demolished the WTC. I have no doubt that those folk earnestly believe everything they say.

      • David Garrett

        Bene: I am with you – see my comment above about the supposed myth of the moon landings. As you say, the proponents of such nonsense do indeed truly believe what they say…but I find they are so woefully ill informed that it is a total waste of time arguing with them.

        On a side note, Mr Google tells me that only FOUR of the 12 guys who walked on the moon are still alive… all in their late 80’s or 90’s.

      • All_on_Red

        There certainly was a big swing from Trump to Biden in the early hours of the morning in many States- which looked very suspicious
        This article reports on it in detail.
        ‘As Mr Trump walked out to speak to the media in the early hours of November 4, TV news tickers showed the President with a comfortable lead over Joe Biden in nearly every key battleground state.

        Pennsylvania, 56-43, a lead of just under 700,000 votes. Georgia, 51-48, a lead of nearly 120,000. Michigan, 53-45, a lead of nearly 295,000. Wisconsin, 51-47, a lead of more than 116,000. North Carolina, 50-49, a lead of nearly 77,000.

        At that point, Mr Biden had leads in Arizona and Nevada, of nearly 155,000 and more than 29,000 respectively.’
        And in the morning that lead was gone.
        https://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/us-politics/us-election-what-happened-in-key-battleground-states-on-election-night/news-story/2037f4baa76cab7e378fdd468ffe22f1
        There doesn’t seem to be evidence of late night deliveries though.
        The swing could be down to Dem strongholds in the City finally having their Votes counted- but the Cities were where a lot of the unsupervised Drop boxes and Ballot Harvesting were and where fraud was most easy to happen…

        • Steve Otto(North Shore)

          Some Counties (don’t know which States) had more votes than registered voters.
          What is wrong with this picture?

      • Scott

        Benedict – I think I still have a reasonable grasp on reality and my faculties are still reasonably sound. I don’t believe the moon landings were faked or that the CIA engineered 911.

        However I have read Mollie Hemingway “Rigged”. I have read Dinesh DSouza “2000 mules” and they cite evidence.

        But also take the helicopter view. Joe Biden couldn’t fill a high school gymnasium with his rallies. He couldn’t get millions of followers on social media. Yet he got 81m votes? More than Obama?

        • Mike

          Dinesh D’Souza is a proven serial liar and, ironically, a convicted electoral fraudster. I don’t know anything about Mollie Hemingway.
          You need credible sources.

          • Don Beckett

            So do you WRT Dinesh

          • DistantObserver

            You can call Dinesh D’Souza all the names you want but much harder to discredit the work Catherine Engelbrecht did with geolocated cell-phone data.
            They solved a murder with it BTW – it was that accurate. There is no doubt people were being paid to harvest and stuff ballot boxes.

          • Steve Otto(North Shore)

            Email him Mike. Ask him who is the serial liar.
            Would you like his email ad?

          • WorthwhileAucklandInitiative

            D’Souza is a clown and a grifter who, if anything, helps the Left by being so full of sh*t. He’s a red herring to this discussion.

            Mollie Hemingway, on the other hand, is a journalist who writes for the Federalist, and is one of the best of that profession in the United States.

      • ChristopherW2

        Ooops – didn’t mean to hit ‘report’. Moderator, please ignore (those links are a bit too close together)

        [Mod – don’t worry about, it happens]

      • Tom Hunter

        All the allegations I have read have an eerily familiar tone.

        I get that as someone who has argued against Moon Landing conspiracists and very much against 9/11 Truthers here on KB (and for too long).

        But the history of US voting is one with a lot of corruption over a long period of time:
        – Tammany Hall in the 19th century

        – Read Robert Caro’s biography of LBJ, especially the 2nd volume as he fought to go from the House to the Senate. The 1941 and 1948 elections were hilariously similar to what was seen in 2020, with counting going on for days and ballot boxes mysteriously turning up out of nowhere. LBJ lost in 1941 because he hadn’t quite figured it out but in 1948 he nailed it, especially in the Democrat Primary runoff that he won by less than 100 votes. The same sh*t went on in other Texas elections.

        – The Chicago machine was (and remains) notorious.

        – It played quite a role the 1960 Kennedy-Nixon fight. Later reports suggested that Nixon didn’t fight the shenanigans of Chicago because his Republicans had been pulling exactly the same crap in downstate Illinois; waiting for official vote total reports and then “generating” enough votes elsewhere to offset them.

        And as far as the “tone” is concerned how does that not stick to all the Democrats – including heavyweights like Pelosi, Hillary Clinton and even Biden himself – who have long claimed the 2000 election was “stolen”, also the 2016 election (“The Russians”) and how Trump was not a legitimate president?

        Hell, one of the moderators for the debate the other night, Jake Tapper, wrote a book twenty years ago about the 2000 election titled Down and Dirty: The Plot To Steal The Presidency

        Apparently all that denial and conspiracy theorising hasn’t hurt these people or caused many to roll their eyes at them nowadays.

        • Mike

          The 2000 election was gifted to Bush by a partisan court which admitted its decision should not set a precedent. Unsurprisingly, many people consider that election to be ‘stolen’.

          • All_on_Red

            And yet, ‘Media organizations later analyzed the ballots and found that, under specified criteria, the original, limited recount of undervotes of several large counties would have resulted in a Bush victory.’

      • ChristopherW2

        Firstly, the ‘moon landing’ reference is a smarmy put down that says much about you, but nothing about me.

        Secondly, I don’t have a ‘source’ for that particular blatant instance – I watched it, on the night and the next day. I watched hours of coverage from many different sources, and I saw it: counting finished, scrutineers dismissed, late night votes delivered, the next day it was announced that counting had been resumed overnight and the totals had drastically changed. It was all broadcast – that was in Pennsylvania, if I recall.

      • NothingLeft

        Douglas Frank, a math wonk has conclusive and exhaustive evidence of massive-scale voter roll padding pre-election and then removal just after elections to hide the crime across many US states (particularly battle grounds). He’s brought to light numerous impossibilities in turnouts higher than physically possible, voting roll demographic pyramids that are magically identical in all counties across a state (rural or urban), but then also magically abruptly different across state lines. And he also has numerous stories of actually getting in rooms with officials who have been receptive to the information and then get shut down by the powers that be as soon as they start to investigate further or do anything about the problem.
        Lots of his presentations on Rumble. Worth a watch if you want to understand just how major the fraud operations and how it is operating in practice, well worth a watch:
        https://rumble.com/v4fp8jc-dr.-douglas-frank-dirty-voter-rolls.html

        DNC aligned Big Tech has of course colluded to censor his stuff from youtube facebook (and twitter until Elon) etc.

      • DistantObserver

        Evidence. Well how about this

        https://www.sos.state.tx.us/elections/laws/dominion.shtml
        Here are the reports when Dominion applied to use their voting machines in TX. This is all dated pre-2020 – so is credible in that events after the fact don’t affect these reports. It amazes me in 2019 despite one failed audit, they went back again months later and still failed. This is a red flag to anybody who has anything to do with audits. Something tells me they were desperate to get them installed.

        Consider these machines are in use in many other states, and the people who make decisions on these matters received financial incentives from Dominion for doing so.
        Then you can do a cursory background check on executives of this firm, what comes up suggests they should have nothing whatsoever to do with an election process in any country.

  • Chuck Bird

    When Hunter Biden did not pick up his laptop Fox was the only media that reported what was in about the Big Guy. The left wing media claimed was not true. The FBI and the CIA refused to investigate like they have on Trump.

    • Inandout

      CB, those 50 ‘prominent’ people who signed a letter saying the laptop was a Russian conspiracy have mostly run for cover when the truth was revealed. There is indeed a nasty swamp in US politics and to that end Trump needs to be super careful with his security.

    • G the giant from Dunedin

      Yet they later after the election agreed it was true

    • Conservatarian

      40% of votes in the 2020 US presidential election were cast by a postal voting season open for six or more weeks, under the guise of “safety” brought about by the Covid scamdemic. This is a glaring red alert, as set out in the long-established guidance of election watchers in the likes of Iraq, Zimbabwe or Venezuela. Oh how we in the west laugh at the absurd corruption of this practice, unless it occurs in the west to defeat an evil orange man of the people and enemy of the regime.

      Obama Term III regime guy Tony Blinken organised 51 former intelligence officials to claim the Hunter Biden laptop reporting by the NY Post et al had all the hallmarks of Russian disinformation, and then the buy-in of Big Tech, in an attempt to suppress and discredit a true story. The leftist media needed this “official cover” in order to collude with those institutions. Obama Term III of course rewarded Blinken with a top post (practicing his guitar playing in Ukraine).

      That’s two of the aspects of how the 2020 election was “rigged”, in addition to how it was “fortified” as set out in the infamous Time article (organisers of the fortifying publicising their actions so they could be acclaimed unsung heroes of the republic).

      In algebra, does R (rigged) + F (fortified) = S (stolen)?

      Funnily, DPF cites only an election result dispute in 2020. He does not seem aware that disputing lost elections is apparently quite normal in the US (see Clinton 2016, Kerry 2004 [see “Diebold machines”], Gore 2000).

      • freemark

        Yes, Trump’s apparent murder of millions by not enforcing draconian, unnecessary & ineffective measures such as lockdowns were weaponised against him by MSM – while data shows millions more died with Covid under Biden. Strangely unreported.

  • WorthwhileAucklandInitiative

    Mollie Hemingway of The Federalist has written extensively on the subject of irregularities in the 2020 election, including an entire book. John Hinderaker of Powerline has also repeatedly pointed out the irregularities on his site. I consider both of these people to be highly credible journalists, and if Kiwiblog considers that they are gaslighting, that reflects more on Kiwiblog than Hemingway or Hinderaker. And that’s before you consider that Time magazine practically bragged about the steal after it happened!

    If nothing else, my gut tells me that the very idea that Biden got more votes than any other presidential candidate in the history of the United States is just insane. It simply can’t be credible. That’s gaslighting right there!

    • All_on_Red

      Her Book is called ‘Rigged’

  • Tom Hunter

    Frankly, as interested as I am in all the in-fighting about the horserace and Biden’s role in it as the Democrat nominee, I’m actually concerned that h should not be President right now. He needs to be gone as both nominee and President asap.

    But aside from some commentary I’m not seeing a lot of worry about this and the focus is on the race.

  • Benedict Yu

    Putting aside the election result, I can’t help but applaud the efficiency of the peaceful transfer of power in the UK. New PM and Cabinet chosen within 24 hours of the polls closing. No cries of election fraud.

    Why can’t the USA institute a national, independent authority to run elections?

    • David Garrett

      Bene: Two excellent points. I have also often wondered about this “voting machines” malarkey; Although the US is a 100 times larger than us, why can they not have manual counting, as we and the UK do – the latter with a population of 80 million?

      Surely the Yanks just need to hire 100 times more human counters than we need? Or am I missing something?

      • Tom Hunter

        You may wish to read this book published in 2005 and written by a US-based Guardian journalist, Steal This Vote: Dirty Elections and the Rotten History of Democracy in America.

        It’s a fun read and was re-issued in 2016 with a new title (Down For The Count) as he wrote new sections dealing with voting machines (people such as Christopher Hitchens made much of the effect of such machines in the 2004 Ohio vote).

        The 2000 presidential election meltdown and the more recent controversy about computer voting machines did not come out of the blue. Steal This Vote tells the fraught but very colorful history of electoral malfeasance in the United States. It is a tale of votes bought, stolen, suppressed, lost, cast more than once, assigned to dead people and pets, miscounted, thrown into rivers, and litigated all the way to the Supreme Court. (No wonder America has the lowest voter participation rate of any Western democracy!) Andrew Gumbel—whose work on the new electronic voting fraud has been praised by Gore Vidal and Paul Krugman, and has won a Project Censored Award

        I do have to chuckle at that short Amazon description.

      • NothingLeft

        The US voting machines and myriad deliberately created voting system vulnerabilities are there specifically because they enable a small group of bad actors to cheat elections – to benefit of incumbents who pay them. The vulnerabilities are a feature not a bug (to the black hats). US political system is for sale to the highest bidder.

        Each fraudulent battle ground state vote is worth $1000’s of dollars to the $15billion US 2024 election cycle. So of course the cheating is rampant, there is enormous money at stake.

        • Mike

          The supreme court legalized unlimited election spending.

      • Benedict Yu

        Isn’t the problem that each state runs its own voting system?

      • graham71

        Have you seen a usa voteing paper?
        They are massive because it’s presidents , congressmen, normally senators then state representatives, any propositions , DAs , school districts etc
        That’s why it’s complicated

    • G the giant from Dunedin

      It’s the fact that each state has different rules, different counting processes, and different methods, inside each state there are regions that have different people running their election as well.

      Why can Floria have a large vote base, yet can confirm results in a few hours, why do leftie sh*t holes take weeks

      • NothingLeft

        To enable cheating through the myriad unnecessary vulnerabilities created of course. It’s by design not an accident.

    • Conservatarian

      Conflicted partisan politicians (R or D) would choose a conflicted partisan federal bureaucracy (D only) to run this “national, independent authority”.

    • Steve Todd

      Why can’t the USA institute a national, independent authority to run elections?

      Because it would require a difficult-to-achieve constitutional amendment.

      (See also https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2024/01/who_will_come_second_in_iowa.html/comment-page-1#comment-3498348.)

  • dcrane

    Speaking of gaslighting:

    “There were 61 court cases and Trump lost 60 of them.”

    So DF doesn’t know most of these cases never made it to the evidence stage due to “standing” dismissals??

    • G the giant from Dunedin

      That’s bullsh*t

  • Steve Otto(North Shore)

    Joe Biden did not win in 2020.
    The voting machines and the vote counters won.

  • Tauhei Notts

    November 2020 and a mate asks what is Trump paying. Betfair had him at $2.80 so I said $2.40.
    Mate offered me five fifties and said $250 on The Donald. He called it insurance as he wanted Biden to win.
    Between 10 p.m. and 11 p.m. on counting night (our time) I saw that I was heading to a $600 payout. I checked Al Jazeera, CNN, BBC, Fox, Sky News, Betfair, Ladbrokes and Sportsbet. Yes; I am a loser.
    So I offered $500 late at night, to call the bet off. The punter said, like a Fijian bargainer, make it $520. No, $500. He agreed.
    Overnight “The Fix” had come in and I had needlessly given away $500.
    And DPF and sundry Democrat dogs keep telling me it wasn’t a fix.
    If I want to listen to sh*t, I’ll fart.

  • Dave Winefield

    You claim Americans deserve better. They do not. For decades since John Kennedy, they have allowed this rubbish to accumulate, and now they are faced with ruin. Just like the Poms – “Its all yours and you are welcome to it.”

  • andrewo

    It was a fraudulent election, and I can prove it David:

    Facts: The Democrats had FBI assets embedded in social media to suppress the Biden laptop story and Republican campaigning in general. Both Trump and The New York Post had their Twitter feeds blocked. They got 51 CIA officers to sign a fraudulent letter saying the laptop was Russian disinformation.

    Conclusion: That election was neither free nor fair.

    So, David, stop being such a total mug.

    • Ghost

      Well straight up they did not get 51 Cia officers to sign a letter. It was 51 former intelligence officials.

      • NothingLeft

        There is recent proof that has come to light that some of them were actively employed by CIA at the time.

  • Tom Hunter

    On a lighter note you all might enjoy this story about a writer who is currently attempting to live exactly according to the US Constitution, Your Constitutional Right to Be a Pirate.

    He’s done something like this before:

    While researching his best-selling 2007 book, The Year of Living Biblically, he literally followed every single rule in the Bible, growing a huge beard and avoiding clothes made from two kinds of fibers. For Drop Dead Healthy in 2012, he tested every diet and exercise regimen he could find, on a two-year quest to become “the healthiest man alive.”

    The reason for the title of that article is that in the early days of America when it had no Navy they allowed private citizens to become official pirates so they could take care of business for the nation on the high seas, and that’s still part of the document:

    It may not get much publicity, but there it is, smack-dab in Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution: Congress has the power to grant citizens “letters of marque and reprisal.” Meaning that, with Congress’s permission, private citizens can load weapons onto their fishing boats, head out to the high seas, capture enemy vessels, and keep the booty. Back in the day, these patriotic pirates were known as “privateers.”

    The Founding Fathers were big fans of privateers. Late in life, John Adams wrote glowingly about the 1775 Massachusetts law that first legalized them, calling it “one of the most important documents in history. The Declaration of Independence is a brimborion in comparison with it.” You read that right: in Adams’ opinion, a law authorizing patriotic piracy is much more important than that trifling tidbit about “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.”

    😅😅😅😅😅
    His application for “letters of marque and reprisal” is still being considered by Congress! But read the whole thing.

    • Mike

      Reminds me of the civil war re-enactors in Confederates in the Attic.

  • Conservatarian

    I do agree that voting machines are a bizarre choice. I worked on two general elections – at a booth in the Hamilton West electorate (2011) and managing a booth in the Hamilton East electorate (2014). Our manual, paper based process was methodical and actually quite slow but without doubt excellent. Rigging vote counting would require a conspiracy of the poll booth manager, all vote counters and any vote observers – though it does require an awful lot of manpower and is expensive.

    Relevantly, the incentives to cheat in 2011 and 2014 were not present – neither election was actually (or widely tipped to be) a close result, and in my specific polling booth National was 2:1 ahead of Labour in the party and electorate vote in each instance.

  • mandk

    It was bleedin’ obvious in 2020 that Biden was cognitively impaired.

    He has been a puppet president.

    • NothingLeft

      And DNC aligned media + Big Tech + Deep State all colluded to hide it, prop Biden up and manufacture incessant bullsh*t attack vectors against Trump. (who I personally dislike), now mostly laid bare as outright fabrications and egregious spin or cover for real crimes committed by Trumps opposition – eg Biden Ukraine corruption that was used as excuse for his first impeachment when Trump clumsily tried to push for its investigation.

      It’s pretty clear where the real big-picture danger to the most powerful western democracy lies and it ain’t with (annoying) Orange man bad, but rather with the deepstate oligarcal/big-govt anti-democratic machinations of the deeply corrupted pay-for-play US political establishment.

  • andrewo

    The fact that several counties in ‘battleground’ states recorded more than 100% turnout doesn’t bother you?

  • DistantObserver

    Suuureeee. It wasn’t a stolen election.
    We only had:
    * Democrats changing voter laws in the direction of making fraud easier and more difficult to detect at every opportunity under the guise of Covid.
    * Insecure (failed multiple audit, see TX Sec.State for pre-2020 reports) dominion voting machines.
    * Evidence of computers with overwritten audit logs. Issues with access to backend SQL databases.
    * Anomalous events reported all over the place with ballot ‘adjudication’ process
    * Massive issues with ‘signature’ matching and missing images for audit-purposes.
    * Ballot ‘harvesting’ as a new phenomenon.
    * Geolocated cellphone data of paid ballot dropping mules stuffing boxes.
    * Zuck bucks and others funding unattended ballot drop-boxes and all sorts of nefarious voter fraud schemes.
    * Ballot counting centers with odd events and late-night counting without scrutineer oversight or scrutineers being pushed out of counting centres. Including the bizarre case of workers covering the windows.
    * Mysteriously ‘found’ ballot boxes.
    * Dumps of ballot boxes arriving in the early hours of the morning.
    * Truck drivers and postal workers testifying to ‘odd’ ballot movement operations across state lines.
    * Media calling states for one party early that looked obviously out of place and at minimum looked like a signal indicating that the cheat was ‘on’.

    None of this warrants serious inquiry apparently. Who is gaslighting who again?

    • Steve Otto(North Shore)

      Now just stop it OK?
      You are telling lies like the Democrats and Media.//

  • WaynelSexton

    Joe Biden wasn’t cognitive last election either. Yet you still believe he was more popular than Obama and Hillary, according to election results.

    • Inandout

      WS, I heard Tucker saying he had heard from a Biden female relative that they knew in 2020 Joe was suffering from dementia. Tucker was at the time working for Fox and had to keep mum about Joe’s condition.

  • NothingLeft

    Joe should start wearing a dress and calling himself Josephine. The Democratic machine couldn’t touch him them.

  • Vinicius

    I watched Biden’s interview on ABC USA at lunch time.

    First, I noticed he lost his train of thought a couple of times as he did during the debate. Second, what an arrogant old man for stating he only listens to God. Trump gets a lot of flak for making false statements, but Biden isn’t a saint either and was flexible with the truth in the interview more than once.

  • freemark

    Sadly it appears our host has been gaslight by MSM regarding Trump (& Covid, which is closely connected to the “get Trump” meme.) As pejorative slogans are pushed out – “anti-vaxxer, misogynist, far-right, racist, hom*ophobic” etc etc we see who is not able or prepared to stand up & be brave enough to push back. It is in some ways understandable but as we are seeing totally destructive to society.

  • Spoff

    Has anyone seen an explanation for the Biden “F” curve?

    “Anomalies in Vote Counts and Their Effects on Election 2020
    The four vote updates in question are:

    An update in Michigan listed as of 6:31AM Eastern Time on November 4th, 2020, which shows 141,258 votes for Joe Biden and 5,968 votes for Donald Trump

    An update in Wisconsin listed as 3:42AM Central Time on November 4th, 2020, which shows 143,379 votes for Joe Biden and 25,163 votes for Donald Trump

    A vote update in Georgia listed at 1:34AM Eastern Time on November 4th, 2020, which shows 136,155 votes for Joe Biden and 29,115 votes for Donald Trump

    An update in Michigan listed as of 3:50AM Eastern Time on November 4th, 2020, which shows 54,497 votes for Joe Biden and 4,718 votes for Donald Trump”
    https://votepatternanalysis.substack.com/p/voting-anomalies-2020

    I know I had gone to bed in the early hours convinced that Trump had won – having swept the bellwether states then woke up next day to be confronted with the “F” curve phenomenon.

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